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Any Cantabile Users? I'm reviewing a new VST host targeted at live performers. It's pretty cool but feels a lot like version 1 (which it is). I don't know yet if it'll end up being my own solution for live use, but it looks promising. So I'm surveying VST hosts in general, looking for commonalities, e.g. Standard features and common limitations. The only ones I have significant experience with are VSTHost and SAVIHost, but I understand that the leaders are MainStage and Cantabile.

I can't demo the former as it's Mac-specific, but I've installed a Cantabile Solo 30-day trial to check it out. So far Cantabile strikes me as being rather obtuse and clumsy, but I don't want to base my opinion solely on a novice's perspective.

I'd like to ask experienced users who've traversed the learning curve what it's like on the other side. Anyone use it? No, not for many years. Broke the habit when I got into working aviation contracts and you were always subject to random piss tests. Plus my lungs were taking a hit. Any CANTABILE users. Sorry, misread.

Went through a bunch of hosts including Cantabile over time and settled on EnergyXT as my go to, which I always considered to be the other missing hand of Sonar. XT leveled the playing field and more against Reaper's advantage regarding vsti management. Has amazed me that no one else has expressed using this program for hosting, live or otherwise. Either I'm missing the boat or nobody knows it exists.

Not to derail the thread, but if this is about hosting plugs, looking at Cantabile or looking for an appropriate alternate, download the demo from here. XT is a good DAW including some impressive native plugs, but for the sake of chaining and routing, you are looking to evaluate the modular environment interface, loading XT as either a vst or vsti support plug into Sonar. The modular pane is where all the routing and connecting takes place.

There is nothing lacking, and you got to respect the way it registers paths to plugins. Could have only been improved with receding support for dx/dxi.

Something maybe quite grim from the website. Energy XT as the standalone DAW has been doing upgrades over the years. The vst and vsti versions stopped updates back in the 2 point 5 or 6. New website has no mention of the plugin versions, though it says 3.0 can be used as a vst plug. No evidence of this though from the installation.

Either to find a 2.X vst/vsti version or back to Cantabile. Sorry for the derail. Another brain dead edit. Follow this link and you can still get ver 2.6 vst/vsti plugin. Bitflipper I'm reviewing a new VST host targeted at live performers. It's pretty cool but feels a lot like version 1 (which it is). I don't know yet if it'll end up being my own solution for live use, but it looks promising.

Hi Dave, Are you doing that for yourself because you are now playing with a band? Or are you doing this for an article? Which one are you demoing?

As a MainStage user I'm always interested in what can be done in Windows. The bulk of my paid software is Win based. Bitflipper So I'm surveying VST hosts in general, looking for commonalities, e.g. Standard features and common limitations. The only ones I have significant experience with are VSTHost and SAVIHost, but I understand that the leaders are MainStage and Cantabile. I can't demo the former as it's Mac-specific, but I've installed a Cantabile Solo 30-day trial to check it out.

I took a look at the ones you have mentioned.they seem very limited for live use on a stage if that is your intended application. Bitflipper So far Cantabile strikes me as being rather obtuse and clumsy, but I don't want to base my opinion solely on a novice's perspective.

I'd like to ask experienced users who've traversed the learning curve what it's like on the other side. Anyone use it? WOW, I don't think I would want to waste my time using that in a live setting.at home it may be another story.

Here's a screen shot of my older MacBook that I bought used for much less than a Duce. I'm posting this not to compare PC's to Mac's or any of that BS. This is only here to show a typical signal chain and how flexible MS is.purposely used non 3rd party stuff.

OK, having done that a few questions. Dave have you experimented around inside SONAR to configure it as a live VST performance host yet?

As opposed to trying 3 rd party solution? By that I mean, have you tried to set up your own custom one track at a time w a synth patch combined with VST effects and saved that track as a track template? SONAR is very good at doing that if you have some time on your hands to see what you can come up with.It may not ever be as good as what MainStage can do only because M S can load a bunch of different performances as a live concert set.and not drain your CPU.

Another interesting thing MS can do is mix and match Synths, Guitar patches, Vocal patches, audio channel patches.all within a concert set. To be fair to SONAR.so can SONAR yet to access all of that as a concert live on a stage setting may be difficult. A person may be able to come up with 1, 2, 3, or 4 must have patches saved as track templates as a SONAR project to switch around within SONAR reliably in a Live setting using different instruments and sounds and be perfectly good to go. The beefier the lap top the more rack templates I suppose, yet I would want a lot of headroom in a Live setting. I sure don't want Murphy thinking he's a band member or part of my live performance To be honest w you I hope I'm not bugging you There is one other super good option (IMHO ) for a Win based live performance keyboard rig that is drop dead balls reliable.

Have you considered downloading Abelton Live Lite? Live is set up in such a way as to be very simple for doing fast drag and drop instrument changes on the fly A big plus is the audio engine doesn't glitch. Live Light may only be 4 tracks max IIRC, but a guy with your intellect and musical chops may get a whole lot of mileage using Live Lite in a live setting it will handle all you plugs an soft-synths. The learning curve for using it live as a host for real time VST instrument performances is a piece of Cake.

All the best, Kenny. I've used Cantabile 2 for a few years in a live setting.

I had 3 to 4 controllers connected to a fairly lightweight DIY PC with a PreSonus FireBox. When we would write songs I tended to use a wide variety of synths so I wanted to be able to recreate that on stage as best as I could.

Originally I was excited by the fact that I could potentially have dozens of representations of different synths at the touch of a button. In reality, it wasn't that simple.

The one thing I can say is that I never really did figure out the programmer's workflow very well. He envisioned it being used with set lists. This is great if you're a cover band and you write out set lists and practice them before shows. However, when you're doing originals and you're apt to just say, 'Let's do xxxxx'-or worse, when the guitarist just starts a song and you have to switch songs immediately-it can be a little clunky.

In fact, now that I think about it, most cover bands I've been in didn't really stick to a set list; we played to the audience. Cantabile does allow you to preload every patch in a set list, so I ended up pretty much loading every song we might possibly play in a monster set list.

There's still a bit of a lag when you switch to a new song but it's very quick. The routing takes quite a bit of thought. I routed each virtual rack in Cantabile to a particular out on the FireBox so the soundperson could have control over the signal from each synth. It took me quite a while to figure that out and even then it could be easy to assign a particular synth in a particular virtual rack to the wrong output.

Not to mention every time I wanted to try a new synth I had to set it all up again. And the potential for wiping out a setting was very high. Having to mute all other synths in the rack was kind of weird, but it made sense in a way. I'm not sure how much the programmer of Cantabile has performed live, but there are some serious limitations that I had to workaround. Organs were assigned to one virtual rack and controller, sample library type synths (Omnisphere, etc.) were assigned to another rack and controller, analog synths assigned to another, and when needed (depended on the band) I had a piano assigned to the 4th. There were some exceptions where I needed two analog synths or maybe a double manual organ, but most of the time it was pretty much the same set up.

I eventually simplified the entire set up to just a few synths. Does that make sense? Each virtual rack represented a keyboard controller and an output on the FireBox. In that rack could be multiple synths which could be layered or muted depending on what sound you were going for. I had 4 racks and 4 controllers, but each rack might have up to a dozen different synths and each song would mute or unmute the synths I needed for that song. The biggest issue was on the analog style synths and it's a problem that you face no matter what with these synths. They have a tendency to jump around when you turn a potentiometer-especially if you've called up a patch that has a pot set to a certain spot and then you turn that pot but the physical pot isn't in the same position as the software pot.

I'm sure that could be addressed in some way but I would imagine it would be expensive (motorized potentiometers) or less than ideal. It became less fun to play since the performances were more like programming for me.

I was always wondering if something had gotten changed that I didn't know about. I had backups on the disk that I could fall back on just in case. I even had a disk image and a second SSD. I learned the hard way that anything can go wrong-although it's really no different than a guitar player breaking a string or a drummer busting a head.

Stuff happens on stage and you deal with it. I would love to see a host that could be designed around the fact that we usually don't run stereo in a live setting, and the soundperson usually prefers discrete outputs from each instrument.

I have not used the new version (Cantabile 3) yet. I'm between bands at the moment. Great thoughts, Kenny. I am reviewing this particular product for publication, but the reason it caught my attention in the first place is because I'm on the hunt for a solution for my own live performances. This one (Gig Performer) looked to be particularly well-suited so I contacted the author, found him to be a kindred spirit. We spent 40 minutes on the phone talking VST hosts, synths and stuff. He's a touring keyboardist himself.

During our conversation he railed against Cantabile's poor UI, and how his product's focus is a user-friendly UI that musicians can grasp who don't also happen to be computer nerds. That led me to download the Cantabile demo and fiddle with it. And yeh, it suffers from the common syndrome of being feature-rich but unintuitive.

Which prompted this appeal, to find out if and why Cantabile's learning curve is worthwhile. Yes, it did occur to me that SONAR could serve as a live host. Staying within a familiar environment has its appeal, certainly. But SONAR's not really set up for that.

There are too many things you have to use a mouse for. I have to be able to operate the software with my left hand while continuing to play with my right. Programmable foot controllers are one possibility, but I already have too many things on the floor now.

Thanks for the Ableton Live Lite suggestion. I did not know there was a lite version. A 4-track limitation that wouldn't be a problem. I don't have enough RAM in my laptop for more than 2 or 3 instruments anyway.

I may have to give it a go. Let me know if you give Airrack a go. Its price is right (free), and looks simple.

However, as with most hosts you are limited to the plugins' own UIs. The best feature of Gig Performer is that you don't have to rely solely on a plugin's UI. You can create your own UI with just the controls you need, and make them as big as you like.

I made one for VB3 that I can easily see from 3' away, with just the controls I use while playing: drawbars, perc on/off, and drive. I also added D16 Syntorus (chorus plugin). That one has a hopelessly tiny UI.

No way I'd try to use it onstage in a DAW. But with Gig Performer I was able to give it a large wet/dry mix knob. I threw in UberMod and ValhallaPlate for good measure, also with nice big knobs.

It's similar to SONAR's FX chains, but with a palette of resizable control styles that can be arranged any way you like. I used a paid version awhile ago, like five plus years. I remember recently getting an email about the new version, but since I don't play as much synth live anymore I wasn't into it. So yeah, I used it, but I don't feel qualified to give an educated answer on the new version.

Back when I used it I never felt really comfortable with that setup on stage since I was running an old pentium cpu laptop. Not Russian Roulette but close. I was more tempted by the Muse Receptor. I still think the Muse is great if you want to play soft synths on stage. Fast response and has the ability to load tons of sounds. Unfortunately I thought it was over priced. Translation- I couldn't afford one.

I have used Brainspawn's Forte since 2006, for live performance, and I am currently running it with literally 20+ instances of Kontakt and several instances of Arturia synths and Reaktor, and even a smattering of Korg Legacy Collection synths, with ZERO issues. Forte has been bulletproof for me for the past 10 years, and does a magnificent job of allowing presets (snapshots to them) from any combination of any of the loaded synths and effects, further supporting splitting controllers into multiple zones, filtering and remapping of midi data, transposition, etc. Furthermore, I can tell it - on a preset by preset or a global basis - to have individual synths not reload samples on a preset change - HUGELY powerful - as this gives me the ability to INSTANTLY switch between presets without having any sample load time at all. They have a fully functional 30-day trial (might have a 30-minute session limit or something reasonable), at They have also been quite speedy and helpful on the 2 occasions I have requested tech support in the past 10 years. It has never failed me ever, and has been a complete joy to work with. They even have a 'stress rack' test mode that will automatically switch between all of your presets over and over again for as long as you want to run it, so that you can make sure everything is cool prior to relying on it in a live situation. I believe Marillion has used it for about as long as I have.

I believe there is an additional $49 bit of software you can pick up from them that may allow you to send out midi data to externally do things like control lighting sequences and such (though I do not have that - as I am typing this that capability might be in the more robust version of Forte, rather than an additional piece of software, but you can see on the site which piece allows that sort of thing). I am able to create incredibly lush layering of sound, and switch to altogether different sets of sounds instantly - you can even have control over it holding the last sound from one preset after switching to a new preset, until I lift up my fingers, and then it will switch in between with the next key strike being on the new preset - OR you can have it not do that. Total control of that sort of thing. You can also set up a whole series of presets and then arrange them into whatever is needed for a given Song. Lastly, I use a midi pedal board controller (Behringer FCB1010) because it has 2 midi expression pedals, and I can change Forte presets using either the foot switches or I can punch in preset numbers on my Axiom Pro 61 midi controller, depending on whatever my hands or feet are doing - and the midi expression pedals can be assigned to volume or wah, or both for volume for different instruments or whatever.

I LOVE using Forte - one of the most bang for the buck rock solid pieces of software I have ever purchased. I watched some Forte videos this morning - the UI looks to be very streamlined, uncluttered and intuitive.

So you are using multiple instances of Kontakt, as opposed to 1-2 instances with instrument banks? How much memory do you have on your laptop? Mine was not purchased with audio in mind, being intended as a portable office. It's just an i5 with 8GB RAM. You're switching scenes with a MIDI footswitch.does that mean you can define a specific MIDI CC for each one? I'm thinking I could use my controller's touch pads for that. Bitflipper Thanks, Bob.

I watched some Forte videos this morning - the UI looks to be very streamlined, uncluttered and intuitive. So you are using multiple instances of Kontakt, as opposed to 1-2 instances with instrument banks?

How much memory do you have on your laptop? Mine was not purchased with audio in mind, being intended as a portable office. It's just an i5 with 8GB RAM. You're switching scenes with a MIDI footswitch.does that mean you can define a specific MIDI CC for each one? I'm thinking I could use my controller's touch pads for that.

I use a desktop now for live performances, but I used a laptop with 32-bit XP Pro and Forte up until 2008, and it worked flawlessly, even with multiple Kontakt instances. I did download and try Forte, along with every other host I could find, plus a lightweight DAW (Ableton Live Light). You're right, it's very sophisticated. It has the feel of a mature application. But so does Cantabile (e.g.

The only one that found my VSTs on first run, without me entering a search path). Most of the others had awkward idiosyncrasies that made me wonder if the developers actually use the software themselves. I didn't have Kontakt installed at the time I was doing my initial testing (I've since installed it for Round 2) so I had no basis for comparing memory management. It's good to know that I can switch quickly between instruments. That's important.

Unfortunately, Forte crashed several times with an access violation, usually when attempting to save. That's not a deal-killer, though, since it's not something I'm likely to ever do mid-performance. I'd planned on returning to it today, but so far my day's been overwhelmed by day-job crap. The 64-bit Forte will die a horrible flaming death if you load in a non-bridged 32-bit plugin into its 64-bit version. There is an option to use JBridge automatically, if installed, and I have JBridge, so do not suffer that fate. And, I happen to run Forte with Run As Administrator (don't know if needed, or if would solve your crashes). I only have the free version of Cantabile, and though more limited than the full version, I don't dislike it.

It just feels to me like Forte is setup that is easy on my brain, and for me is both rock-solid and powerful, while also incredibly efficient. Oh - if you DO test out switching presets using multiple Kontakt instances, after you add a Kontakt instance, click the arrow to the right of the instance's name to open the UI.

Click on the double-arrows t the left, to float Kontakt to a sizable window to expose the whole Kontakt UI, and click on the Scene Commands tab (I think that is what it says - it is the rightmost tab, of maybe 4 tabs). Anyways, once that tab opens, click on the options list and click on the option that tells Kontakt to NOT load samples, but use what was last saved. THAT is how it knows to leave samples in memory, so when you switch away from it and back when switching presets, it will then be an instantaneous switch, as it won't load any samples. There is also a global option you can look up, to where you just enter Kontakt and any other sample-based synths there, and then that acts like a global override to always make sure that samples do not get reloaded on scene change.

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Both options will result in the same effect, but the global setting is well, global. My current rig has 20+ Kontakt instances, and no issues - I have 32 GB of memory, which certainly helps.